Curse

spellsword · Aug 03, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Even if botters steal or crack accounts, it still means that someone will have to get a new one.

Entreri · Aug 03, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

Simply cap the amount any item can be sold for to another player to, say, 100 times that monetary value. Heck, let's be generous and say 150 or 200 times that value.

This won't change prices. If an item sells at 100k now and you cap it at 50, after the change people will just sell it for 50k + 50k worth of ectos. The 100k price cap is already in effect and it doesn't curb prices for items people really want.

Entreri · Aug 03, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

And no, Anet will never sell in game gold themselves. That is a stupid market play because then they would have to deal directly with outsourced competition. They would then be in direct competition with ebay gold sellers. It is a lose/lose situation. If they were pro-active about competition, the prices would eventually get driven into the ground, and trade values as well as the overall game economy would be utterly devastated; and an online game without an economy can just about destroy the player community, driving away customers or any further profits. If they took the fixed method, and decided to ignore competition, they would lose sales and gross profits across the board as all competitors would be selling below them. This would again bring forth the question of, "How long can they support the servers without making any revenue?".

This is incorrect. Currently Anet makes $0 on online gold. So it's impossible for them to lose sales and gross profits on online gold sales.

You also have to keep in mind that if Anet sold gold online, they could always undercut competition without a thought. Third party gold sales have to spend time getting accounts and farming the gold. Anet's expense is effectively 0, they run the server so they can just conjure gold out of thin air. Nobody at Anet is going to be sitting there farming trolls... not even a bot.

Adding a bunch of extra gold into the economy is a bad move. But it's important to realize that THIS ALREADY HAPPENS TODAY. It's just that the driving force is third party gold selling organizations rather than Anet.

Malice Black · Aug 03, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Yeah, what you don't realize is that not a lot of people actually buy gold. Everything justs gets made 100x worse when it hits the fan sites.

There was an article on what people bought with their bought gold, most of it was a one time purchase for 15k armor. Yes, thats right 100k..not millions.

Granted there was reports of people buying millions over the space of months but in most cases it was shown the online purchase of gold was a one time thing. I can't remember where the article was, I'll try and dig it up.

Mac Sidewinder · Aug 04, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Yeah, what you don't realize is that not a lot of people actually buy gold. Everything justs gets made 100x worse when it hits the fan sites.

There was an article on what people bought with their bought gold, most of it was a one time purchase for 15k armor. Yes, thats right 100k..not millions.

Granted there was reports of people buying millions over the space of months but in most cases it was shown the online purchase of gold was a one time thing. I can't remember where the article was, I'll try and dig it up.

QFT

I have to completely agree. I think everything gets blown out of proportion when it comes to bots. Everyone seems to be an expert on them. I see reports of "hundreds of thousands of bots" and "almost all of them are chinese" as well as "when they get banned they buy more accounts" and other comments like these all the time. I'd really like to know how everybody seems to be an expert on bot issues? The only way you would know so much about bots is if you were running one yourself.

For the record (before I get accused of running one myself) I know very little about the bot problem myself. I don't think its right to sell or buy online gold but that really isn't causing a problem to the way I play. I have played quite a few MMOs and everyone has problems with online gold sales. No company seems to have found a good way to combat it. But however the company chooses to fight it needs to have the concerns and welfare of its customers in mind also. Don't fight the bots and fight your customers at the same time.

Has anybody ever seen a report on how many "suspected" bot accounts there really are? Just wondering.

Wraith of Shadows · Aug 04, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

this may have been posted by someone else, but i dont have the time nor patience to look thru all these replies. if u havent noticed, just about EVERYTHING is going down in price. i remember back in the day when sup vigors were like 38k, how much are they now? 12k?. remember when dead bows and sephis axes were worth a ton? now they are worth a handful of plat? this is because of bot farming, continuous farming of a certain area and monster(i.e. undead at bergen)by a computer controlled character/account using some sort of script(i kow, i used to "bot" on runescapex.X). and it makes honest farmers like many of us, including myself, work that much harder to get 2 and even 3 of something that will suffice for that item's worth originally. in all basics, Guild Wars economy is going down hill. oh, and for the record, i dont play Poonscape anymore.

Batou of Nine · Aug 04, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entreri

This is incorrect. Currently Anet makes $0 on online gold. So it's impossible for them to lose sales and gross profits on online gold sales.

You also have to keep in mind that if Anet sold gold online, they could always undercut competition without a thought. Third party gold sales have to spend time getting accounts and farming the gold. Anet's expense is effectively 0, they run the server so they can just conjure gold out of thin air. Nobody at Anet is going to be sitting there farming trolls... not even a bot.

Adding a bunch of extra gold into the economy is a bad move. But it's important to realize that THIS ALREADY HAPPENS TODAY. It's just that the driving force is third party gold selling organizations rather than Anet.

Umm, you do realize i was talking theory correct? It was all COMPLETE conjecture **IF** Anet sold in game gold for real cash. You are arguing as if i said that they *do* sell in game gold, which is a very silly thing to argue.

Again in theory::
And yes, Anet could simply undercut third party gold sellers, but do you not realize how competition works? One will always compete with the other. As it is it is quite cheap to purchase in game gold. If they went back and forth undercutting eachother's prices the value and worth of in game gold in the game itself would drop to nothingness. In-game gold flooding 10x faster through ease of purchasing at rock bottom prices then drowns the game in a dismally dead market: Effectively killing GW economy.

cheers.

Entreri · Aug 04, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Umm, you do realize i was talking theory correct? It was all COMPLETE conjecture **IF** Anet sold in game gold for real cash. You are arguing as if i said that they *do* sell in game gold, which is a very silly thing to argue.

I bolded the part you said which was

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

If they took the fixed method, and decided to ignore competition, they would lose sales and gross profits across the board

You can't lose any sales or gross profits in an area if you currently have no sales or gross profits in that area. This is the current case for Anet both in theory and in reality.

I get that you weren't talking about the current situation but about reduced projected profits if they did. But the point remains that even reduced projected profits are still above what they make in the area today so it would still be a win for them financially.

However, this is beside the point. I agree with you that Anet directly selling gold and adding new gold directly into the market would be bad. Fortunately that simple case isn't the only way to tackle the problem. Here is what I think would be a better solution, I dropped it in a new thread since I'm running on a tangent from the OP.

Clord · Aug 04, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Banning bots is just marketing trick. In reality they are banned very likely mostly because doing "good deed" like that give a lot "happy customers". Yet most from combating against bots in MMORPG games does maybe blizzard.

Entreri · Aug 04, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder

Everyone seems to be an expert on them. I see reports of "hundreds of thousands of bots" and "almost all of them are chinese" as well as "when they get banned they buy more accounts" and other comments like these all the time. I'd really like to know how everybody seems to be an expert on bot issues?

1. Go to granite citadel or bergen hot springs
2. Notice the line of monks with names like 'Szh Zhyrz'. None of them have guilds, all of them have the same tattoo armor and they all seem to amble in a line from one targetable object like a merchant or sign to another, then finally stumble out of the town.
3. Notice that you can see a constant line going in and out of town at any time of the day.
4. Send a letter to Anet with screenshots. Do this as often as you like. Check again next week and notice that the line is still blatantly obvious and just as populated as last time.

Bots that are less blatant could be set up. The fact that none of them bother suggests that they don't really worry (or have to worry) about anything being done to them.

=HT=Ingram · Aug 04, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Best solution I've made since before the game came out. Remove the trade button and customize every drop in the game to the person that finds it account. problem solved. As long as they allow trade of any kind without regulation there will be people cheating the system.

Alternatively I would suggest a NPC appraiser. That you take an item too that allows it to be sold for the amount the appraiser sets its value at. So if you want to trade something it has to be appraised. And that appraisal is the max you can get for the item. Again Problem Solved. REGULATION. If that means people that cheat leaves the game... all the better.

haggus71 · Aug 04, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Malice has it. I play the game to have fun. It kind of adds a 'real world' aspect to things. I think the PvPers sometimes have it better. They mostly play for the fun, fame and accomplishment. True competition. It doesn't matter if your armor is 1k sunspear or the stupid Ziggurat armor from FoW. As long as the runes are unlocked you are set. And you don't need gold to unlock them, just faction!

I think a lot of players are treating PvE like Second Life. "Heh, that sin has Seitung armor. I have Vabbi." The only...ONLY ones that are hurt by this are those who want to be all Prima Donna and not worry about the achievement of finding new ways to beat a Mission in HM. Gold doesn't help you cap elites. It doesn't help you beat bosses.

Anyway, I think Seitung just looks better. Who wants to look like a Swiss Army knife?

Engel the Fallen · Aug 04, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Easy solution: Anet sells Gold directly (or items) and Bots will diminish (they'll never go away completely).

I been saying this from day one. I mean bots make the same amount of money by running more accounts, and normal players get, less and less gold.

There is now a deep divide between people who prot bond farmed, exploited the two trader resets or stocked up on candy canes at the 1st Christmas. Now new players have no hope of getting the cash the older smarter players had. No 10k ectos with zero effect. No candy canes for one goyle skull that sold for 1k. No sup absorb runes for 100g, seeing them kit 70k or so in a week or two.

So new players get almost nothing, and older players are still sitting on stacks of ectos and 900k or so in the stash. I got 550k left from all the old exploitive gold making ways.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 04, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engel the Fallen

So new players get almost nothing, and older players are still sitting on stacks of ectos and 900k or so in the stash. I got 550k left from all the old exploitive gold making ways.

Yes, but I'm willing to assume that you pretty much have everything you want, and thus don't buy very much. Prices are pretty low for most items already, the ingame economy is actually a pretty good place for casual players at the moment.

Honestly, just let bots be an arenanet issue, they hardly effect you as an individual at all. Take a deep breath, count to ten, and go smack the crap out of some charr.

Malice Black · Aug 04, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engel the Fallen

I been saying this from day one. I mean bots make the same amount of money by running more accounts, and normal players get, less and less gold.

There is now a deep divide between people who prot bond farmed, exploited the two trader resets or stocked up on candy canes at the 1st Christmas. Now new players have no hope of getting the cash the older smarter players had. No 10k ectos with zero effect. No candy canes for one goyle skull that sold for 1k. No sup absorb runes for 100g, seeing them kit 70k or so in a week or two.

So new players get almost nothing, and older players are still sitting on stacks of ectos and 900k or so in the stash. I got 550k left from all the old exploitive gold making ways.

So?

I think people are happier now then back then...

1million for a Req8 15^50 Chaos axe..
50k for a sup vigor..
80-90k for sup asorb (100k was trader price)

Granted the sellers were happy, but theses drops were few and far between. Unlss you were either a good trader or a hardcore farmer such items were never within reach ofyour average joe, now everyone can afford a decent gold.

The game evolved to be more casual player friendly, we all knew it would come eventually.

Mac Sidewinder · Aug 04, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Best solution I've made since before the game came out. Remove the trade button and customize every drop in the game to the person that finds it account. problem solved. As long as they allow trade of any kind without regulation there will be people cheating the system.

Alternatively I would suggest a NPC appraiser. That you take an item too that allows it to be sold for the amount the appraiser sets its value at. So if you want to trade something it has to be appraised. And that appraisal is the max you can get for the item. Again Problem Solved. REGULATION. If that means people that cheat leaves the game... all the better.

I could see how your first suggestion could solve some of the bot problem since there would be no need for large amounts of gold for rare items and weapons. But you still need alot of gold for vanity items like armors and such. So there would still would be a market for illegal gold for that. Also if you do away with trade system completely then i'm pretty sure quite a few customers would simply leave the game. Some players like to find that rare skin to simply sell it.

I don't see how your 2nd suggestion solves anything at all. The appraising system would have to set all prices pretty low in order to reduce the demand for large amounts of gold. Then you could also just take that low price and demand that large amounts of ecto be required also to purchase it anyway. Sort of how it runs now. If the prices on all rare items were kept that low why would anyone really want to spend all the time to get it in the first place. Isn't that the point of having a rare item - the perception that its alot more valuable than a common one?

Either way I think would drive players out the door. Bottom line is don't let the bots running around bother you unless they are somehow affecting your gameplay. I think there is simply too much hype about them. Let Anet deal with them.

My Green Storage · Aug 05, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

LOL .. coming into Kaineng Internation yesterday (Friday) I see this:

http://hidebehind.com/4E9E79
(I'm the Rit on the right

)

Gotta admit that is pretty funny

thedarkmarine · Aug 05, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I said it before and will again put more gold in the game so that players will make 100K in 2 weeks or a month and won't need to buy gold.Those botters will find their business going down this is the same as if you made all contraband drug legal.Law Enforcement Agencies are losing the War on Drugs why because it is easy to get it in a Country or home grow it.The only way to do this is to stop trade indefinitely but they can't do that as they need overseas goods.

This doesn't stop Anet from stopping trading all they have to do is remove the trade window where you put your gold and just give things away or barter for it.Yeap who cares about bots I don't.

Wow, complete fail.

What you described is what stupid governments do to combat a poor economy, only to plunge it into total inflation, making money absolutely worthless, skyrocketing inflation. This is the joke that are told in intro-economic courses.

If you gave everyone easy access to gold, then everyone will value gold less. If you gave everyone too much (as you suggested), gold will be worth NOTHING, which introduces your next suggestion. But...

...if you remove gold, some other currency will be in effect, like ectos, or materials, and then you are back to square one. Now, instead of controlling currency A (gold), you're controlling currency B (Rare Material X, Keys, or something else).

free_fall · Aug 05, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entreri

This won't change prices. If an item sells at 100k now and you cap it at 50, after the change people will just sell it for 50k + 50k worth of ectos.

Sorry, Enteri, but you seem to have missed the part where I said that if the total amount of gold + items that the buyer puts up exceeds the cap amount on the item(s) the seller has put up, the sale is disallowed.

Now, that's not to say that Seller A couldn't sell something for 50k + 10 ectos, but that would involve him selling that something + other somethings whose total price cap amount would = 50k + 10 ectos.

Kinky Bear · Aug 05, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Players care about bots because they have a negative effect on the economy. They spam farm something and then it loses it's value...Anet tries to fix this by doing whatever update so then a)Players make less money off things they casually farm to sell and b)bots simply just run and get their stuff either way. It all negatively effects players because we get screwed over at the same time.

In terms of easier access to gold...no thank you. I'll just go ahead and say Diablo II and many should know what I mean.